Is death the end?

[Valknor]

Do you believe there is more to life than the physical world, or is this the limit of our existence?

As I get older, I've come to think about this with increasing frequency. I still believe in a living tapestry, in which our lives are interwoven with others, but that only exists in the material universe. Is there something more out there?

[SfcoAwol]

Obviously we are all in the same boat if there was scientific knowledge of it then it would be "common knowledge" of life after death. but I do personally believe there is more out there than just death.

[NotChyoTacos]

I certainly hope there is more than death out there.

[Valknor]

I'm not sure either. I've been reading the New Testament lately, and Jesus repeatedly talks about Hell and the Kingdom of Heaven. The former he says is entered through a wide gate, while the latter is a narrow door. There's much talk about fire, wailing, and gnashing of teeth- it's quite unsettling.

[SfcoAwol]

John 3:15-17
That's my personal belief. There are allot of unsettling things in the new testament but there is also allot of hope.

[Valknor]

I would like to believe that. Perhaps in time I will. As of now I'm still a fence sitter, with no strong convictions in either direction. There could be an afterlife, and a power known as god; or humans could have been very good at creating convincing stories. As I study the new testament, I try to work out what could be true, from what may be made up. It seems most of the work requires a leap of faith to accept as fact.

From a historical standpoint, in order for one to be certain about the things stated, they have to be substantiated. It's true we have the gospels by various authors. But what about the authors themselves? What did they do before they met Jesus? What where their lives like? When did they write their stories about him? How much collaborative evidence is there that the author's are 1. who the bible claims them to be, and 2. telling the truth?

[SfcoAwol]

That's where you choose to put your your faith/belief. Even an atheist is putting their faith into their belief because honestly as much as they like to think their beliefs are backed by science they still dont have rock solid evidence that they are right.
I guess there are 2 main reasons I believe what I believe.
1. From what I can tell they haven't been able to prove the bible to be false. And if you look at some of the events they have been able to show some of what the bible talks about to be true. Example in the location of where they believe moses parted the sea they have found the remains of chariots. Findings like that I feel help me to think if it was right in that area then it gives more validity in other areas that might not be able to be proven. Also to have so many authors from so many different periods of time and halving all the writing's line up as perfectly as the do is incredible all in its self.

2. The other reason I believe this way is I can't find really any other religion that dont require of you to get to heaven. Example Catholicism requires you to give to the church and be a good person to go to heaven. Jehovah's witnesses require you to do works for salvation. Islam is no different ect.
Where I believe that in and of ourselves theres nothing we could do for our salvation and so God bacame flesh for us and gave himself as a sacrifice to pay for our wrongs. The only thing we have to do is accept that gift and our wrongs have been paid for. And it says in the new testament that all you have to do to confess with your mouth and believe he sacrificed himself for you. and you've accepted his gift. And if your interest in looking at these verses for yourself let me know and I can post them for you.
Also the other reason I chose this belief over somthing like say atheism is if you look at it if they are right and I'm wrong then after I die it dont matter anyway I've just lived a more clean life. But if I'm right and they are wrong then let's just say I'm glad I chose to believe the way I did. If you think of it that way your way farther ahead to believe in something. But if your looking for rock solid evidence of "this is for sure the truth" you'll never find it. It will always some portion of faith/belief.

[Valknor]

I've been pondering what you said for a few days, and have done some more research. Your last point does make sense to me- after all, if an Atheist is right, he just disappears- but if he's wrong, he may have to face judgement from a higher being. This brings up another problem I've often pondered, and as yet have not come to a satisfactory solution. There are many religions out there- how does one sort out which one is the true path to salvation? Even within Christianity there must be thousands of sects by now- are they all right, or are some of them leading people astray?

You say that the bible follows history, that's not necessarily proof that it's divinely inspired. If I wrote a story today about a miracle man, I could easily include contemporary facts about my time- in fact that would probably be easier than concocting a fictional world to set my story in. If I had some more people to collaborate my story, many people may believe in it. We've seen many cults in the last century with their leader supposedly performing miracles before their followers. At least one had such a strong hold over his followers, that they committed suicide on mass at his urging.

I'm continuing my study of the new testament, perhaps it will win me over in the end. I'm currently working my way through the book of Mark. So far I think it's pretty hard to believe in a loving god, when he sends the "unprofitable" to hell. Maybe I'm taking Jesus too literally in his parables, and something's gotten lost in translation, because he didn't condemn cripples but rather healed them. Some verses that have disturbed me greatly in the KJV include Matthew 25:29-30, and Mark 9:43-49. There are others which I might post later. But it sounds like God has no use for people who don't profit him, and casts them into the fire. Near the end of Mark 9, it sounds like we are all sacrifices to god, burned as animals where, and perhaps consumed by him as food.

[SfcoAwol]

Sorry for the really late reply. It's been an eventful couple of weeks. I understand how it would be overwhelming with all the different sects in "christianity" or any religion for that matter. I would just encourage you to do some of your own research on some of these religions to see if you can make sense of what you believe to be true. As far as the differences in different Christian beliefs as long as they have the same basic belief of "salvation" then they are based in the same belief. Where they will defer is in how they interpret certain aspects of the bible (as I'm sure you have noticed the bible could be interpreted many different ways just depending on how it is read and comprehended by the reader. Theres a reason that there are people that study it their entire life.) There will be some things that dont really matter either way and you can just deal with. For example my church believes that Christmas is the most Christian holiday there is. I personally believe that it has many pegan ties. But it's not that important so I dont make a deal out of it. But there are others that might look the other way when a deacon cheats on his wife and say "well jesus just loves us all and forgives him". And that's obviously an issue he might be able to apologize and get forgiveness from his wife and church but should at very least lose all positions of leadership.

To answer your other concern about hell jesus does say that hell was made for satan and his Angel's. I dont believe hell was ever intended for us but when we sinned we followed after satan. If you study a little in the old testemate in Isaiah 14:14 satan says. "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High" and that was why hell was created for him and his followers.
Now if you look into the original sin from the garden. This is the serpent talking. Genesis 3:5 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
She literally committed the same sin as satan and her sin is what damnd us all. Because of what she did we all inherited the "knowledge of good and evil" and now that we know what's right and wrong we have no excuse. If you follow the rest of the old testemate they had to make animal sacrifices to pay for their sins which was the reason jesus had to come to earth so he could be the ultimate sacrifice so we could go to heaven. Sorry to be long winded I'm just hoping to lay down some background.

[Valknor]

No problem on that late reply, that's actually one of the reasons I decided to go with forums instead of other communications platforms. It's nice to not be under pressure to quickly reply to people's posts, unlike with a live chat application. With forums we can have a conversation that's spread out over the course of many years- there's no rush.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, your advice on choosing the right sect seems to boil down to that most of them are right, it's more a matter of personal taste. So there's not one true sect, but actually many.

I'm not sure about hell. I hear Jesus mentions it more than anyone else in the bible, and he say's a lot of people are going there Matthew 7:13. It sounds like the portion of the population who where saved in his time was very small indeed. But as you say, Jesus created a new deal for those who believe in him.

Also, I'm in the process of trying to sort out Genesis's background. There's a lot of theories floating around as to who wrote it. What's your take?

[SfcoAwol]

From what I've heard allot of people believe that genesis was written by Moses and where they think that comes from was when you read the account of when Moses went on the mount and was given the ten commandments that God showing him the past events, I think they are getting at specifically when God allowed him to see his back side they believe he was shown the past, but its not specifically stated that way.

I would be careful saying all sects are good as some can really go nuts (like dancing around and speaking in tongues) and those groups can get very "cultish". but I wouldn't throw a group out just cause a they don't line up perfectly with your views especially if its a minor thing.

I would say personally my views line up closest to being a "Baptist" not to be confused with Southern Baptist they get a little crazy, but like I said we don't see eye to eye in every area but its not nothing I cant just agree to disagree and move on with, like they tend to think any music with a "backbeat" is bad, where I don't think any music is really bad unless it makes you think bad thoughts or puts you in a bad state of mind (things like depression can definitely be aided by music).
they would also say smoking is bad because its an addiction and bad for your body, if you asked them to prove that from the bible they will just point you to the verse saying "your body is a temple" which I would reply well then stop eating sugar. but I already know they wouldn't agree with me and I don't agree with them so I don't make it an issue since its not that important anyways. I hope I'm getting my thoughts across, I'm terrible at conveying them sometimes.

I guess if they have the the basic understanding of salvation then its enough to get you into heaven but if you want to actually grow in your understanding of God then you might want to be more picky of which one you call home. if that makes sense?

[Valknor]

Interesting take on Genesis.

I'll agree that music can have the power to heal as well as to harm. Interestingly enough playing the blues tends to help me when I'm feeling depressed. There's even a joke that you can't stay blue while singing the blues.

Addiction in general is bad, and that isn't limited to physical substances. People can become addicted to television, video games, gambling, etc- all end up being self-destructive in some way or another when done to excess. I've long struggled to push aside distractions, and get things done. When I start playing a new video game, or reading an interesting book, I often have trouble managing how much time I spend a day on that, vs productive things like coding, making models, or working on a server. I did find that it helps to balance physical and mental things, so I often go on walks to get away from everything else and clear my mind.

I think I understand what you're saying.

Say, what's your take on the resurrection story? I got through the book of Luke, and I've noticed some things differ a lot between authors. For starters there's the tomb. Matthew 28 has an earthquate, and an angel descending from heaven who rolls back the stone. Mark 16 has the stone already rolled back when Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome come to the tomb, and there is an angel sitting inside. In Luke 24, two angels appear to them near the tomb. In John 20 there is no mention of angels at all being near the tomb.

[Valknor]

I don't know how I missed it, but John does actually mention two angels in John 20:12.

So, that's two disciples who say there where two angles, and two who say there was one.

[SfcoAwol]

well in the case of the stone I believe both accounts are correct as when the angel rolled away the stone it does not state that the women were there yet it just says that the guards were afraid, as for the rest it is kind of allot to decipher in detail as some of the writers are vague in certain area's, this page when I did a quick search on it does a decent job of trying to make sense of it, https://www.compellingtruth.org/resurre ... ounts.html

[Valknor]

Thanks for the link.

I went to a church for the first time in ten years last week. It was a Pentecostal Church a friend invited me to. I was expecting wooden pews, people speaking in tongues, and rolling on the ground. Instead we had comfortable chairs, friendly people, and good music, at least by church standards. My friend was one of the musicians, and he played the electric guitar, while the pastor's daughter played the keyboard and sang. I don't know if the church experience is right for me, but it wasn't terribly uncomfortable.

I'm invited to a picnic they are throwing this Sunday. I'm not sure if I'll attend or not. I do feel a little uncomfortable eating their food when I don't share their faith, so I'd probably end up making a fairly large dish to bring. They do seem to be nice people though.

[SfcoAwol]

hey everyone starts somewhere, I'm glad it wasn't a bad experience for you! I'll be honest in saying I wouldn't worry about feeling weird about going to picnic, allot of times they do that to fellowship with other people in the church and connecting with people that are interested in the church, most times its hard to stay connected or connecting with people in the short 5min conversations that happen at church and its just a way of spending time together outside of Sunday morning services.

[Valknor]

Well, I didn't go to the picnic. It was hot and muggy, and I hadn't slept well on two days. I figured I'd be hot, tired, and fairly anti-social. Maybe I'll go to the next one.